Michael Lieberman soundbite (00:01)
I think for the downstream consumers, it’s one thing to do the security. It’s another thing to have folks who are consuming the software know, yes, I feel confident that they’re actually doing the right things because I’m getting signed in an atttested documentation that I can tie back to the maintainers.
CRob (00:18)
Hello, everybody. I’m CRob. I do security stuff on the internet, amongst other things, and I also am a community member and chief security architect for the Open Source Security Foundation. And one of the amazing things I get to do is host “What’s in the SOSS?” podcast, where I talk to interesting people, whether they’re developers or leaders, policy people in and around the open source software ecosystem.
And today we have a pretty cool treat, my friend Michael Lieberman from Kusari. I’ve had the chance to work with Michael for a couple of years within the OpenSSF, and we’re going to talk today about supply chain security and other topics. But before we do that, Michael, why don’t you introduce yourself to the audience?
Michael Lieberman (01:07)
Sure. Yeah. So I’m Michael Lieberman, and I’m CTO and co-founder of a startup called Kusari, focused in supply chain security, but also very much focused in building and using open source.
And in addition to that, I also wear multiple hats in the community as a CNCF TAG security lead, which is the technical advisory group for security for the CNCF as the name sort of suggests.
And then in addition to that in the OpenSSF, I’m a maintainer of some projects like GUAC and SLSA. And in addition to that, I’m also a TAC member and a governing board member.
CRob (01:47)
Now that we’ve got the today story for Michael told, could you maybe share with us, what’s your open source origin story?
Michael Lieberman (01:56)
Sure, so I’ve been using open source obviously, like, since college, you maybe even before that, actually, I remember learning my first programming language, was a very early version of Python. And you know, that was kind of my first introduction, I think, to open source. But as far as, like, my career is gone, using open source for a really long time, occasionally opening up an issue on whether it was prior to GitHub, you know, into some mailing list or that sort of thing.
More recently, when I was…got into the banking world, I was working at a big hedge fund called Bridgewater for a while where we were doing a lot in open source, but we were starting to become more open and contributing back, especially given that we were so security focused. We wanted to make sure that certain things we had seen would get addressed upstream.
And so that involved a lot of stuff on that end. And then as time sort of progressed, would say around the time of the pandemic started getting a lot more involved in, in open source, where I first was a regular member of the financial services end user working group, which is part of the CNCF or at least for the CNCF, I should say. And then eventually I became one of the chairs of that.
Folks in that group are very interested in security. And that’s how I got introduced to TAG Security, where I started working on the Supply Chain Integrity white paper that they had sort of best practices paper, I should say, that they wrote up and I contributed to. And then eventually the Secure Software Factory Reference Architecture, which I helped lead. But as part of this whole thing, there was a relatively new group called the OpenSSF, or Open Source Security Foundation.
And that’s kind of…how I got introduced there, because obviously CNCF, TAGv Security, security, that’s very much focused purely on cloud native, but then you had OpenSSF, which was focused more broadly just on open source security, and that’s kind of how I got introduced there.
CRob (03:54)
That’s pretty cool. And you’re unique in regards to some of our other guests in that you are leader of a startup. Can you maybe describe a little bit for the audience, what’s it like being a startup within this amazing open source ecosystem?
Michael Lieberman (04:10)
It can be very challenging to kind of get some signal above the noise, especially when you don’t have like…when I worked at the big banks, it was very easy to say, “Hey, I work at Big Bank X, you should listen to me,” compared to when you work at a startup and you’re like, “Well, I’m a founder of a startup. You should listen to me.” But I think the thing there is you sort of live and die by your contributions.
So when folks see that you are a good contributor to the community, that you are coming in with your expertise, but also trying to understand other things, and also just trying to do the chopping wood sort of work. It’s not just about, yes, I’ve worked on that for years and this is how it should be done. It should be also, hey, this is how it should be done. And let me show you, let me sit down and actually write down some of the documentation or let me work on a tool or open up a PR to show you how that sort of thing would work.
So it’s a little bit of everything and I will say it’s kind of hard to not get drowned out sometimes by just how much is going on. But with that said, I will say if you put in the time and effort, it can be very rewarding.
CRob (05:18)
But let’s talk about some of your contributions that I know you still, in addition to running your company and being involved in all these different organizations, you’re an active developer and participant in a couple of our biggest initiatives within the foundation, SLSA and GUAC. Could you maybe talk a little bit about SLSA first, and then let’s dive into dependencies with GUAC.
Michael Lieberman (05:38)
Sure. So my introduction to SLSA was kind of a funny one where I saw an article about this new set of practices that had been contributed to the OpenSSF by Google. And I immediately asked the question of like, what’s going on here? What is this thing? And everybody else said, “We just released it today. Like, give us a second!” But I got involved very early on because it seemed like, wow, this is actually hitting something that was not being hit prior, right?
A lot of other best practices that are out there were hitting like how to secure a thing, but not how do you prove that the data that says you are securing the thing is actually accurate? That’s really what SLSA is hitting, especially in the build process right now. So I got involved very, very early on. I became part of the steering committee.
And then as sort of things evolved, I became sort of an actual maintainer of the spec itself, where I contribute both to the content of the spec, as well as reviewing stuff and making sure that things line up with other pieces of the spec. So that’s kind of how I got involved with SLSA.
And then as part of some of that work, right, that was back when I was still working at the banks. And as I kind of continued on, it was very clear that when we look at software bill of materials or SBOMs and a lot of this other data like SLSA that’s like the information that’s coming out of SLSA there is not a lot to make sense of it. And what things do make sense of it often look at each of those things as a in a vacuum? So it looks at a SLSA attestation in a vacuum or an SBOM in a vacuum and so there was something that was missing there.
And after myself and my co-founders decided to create a startup, we quickly realized that maybe we should start working on a tool to start addressing stuff in that space. And a few of the other folks in the space — like Professor Santiago Torres from Purdue University, as well as some folks from Google, like Brandon Lum and Mihai, who also is a big contributor in OpenSSF — we all sort of kind of came together and we realized like, oh, we all want to build this thing.
And so why, given that we were all working together in some capacity in the open source already, we said, as opposed to all of us creating different tools and yada, yada, why don’t we all come together and build something? And so that’s kind of was the genesis of GUAC and GUAC became this tool and it’s now part of the OpenSSF. At the time, we had sort of created it outside of the OpenSSF, but once it kind of reached that critical mass, we decided to contribute it to the OpenSSF.
And for folks who are not super familiar, it’s essentially a way to analyze lots of SBOMs, lots of SLSA attestations, other supply chain metadata, enrich it with information like vulnerability data from open source databases like OSV, or to figure out license risk information from APIs like Clearly Defined, and all sorts of other stuff. And so it’s trying to help answer the questions of what is in your supply chain? What should you be worried about? Where’s the next Log4j? Where does that live? And what does it impact? Is it impacting one of my applications or all of my applications? So it’s really a graph of understanding everything that’s in your software.
CRob (09:03)
So this sounds really valuable to downstream consumers. How would like an open source maintainer or developer leverage an SBOM or GUAC? Would that be useful to them?
Michael Lieberman (09:13)
Sure, yeah. So it depends. So the way that we currently have it set up, and it’s evolving, is
GUAC right now has a good answer for when you have lots of SBOM. So for the end stream consumer, but also in addition to that, we’re having conversations, for example, with the Kubernetes ecosystem and some other ecosystems that their project actually consists of lots and lots of lots of different pieces.
And for them, one SBOM is not enough because they have hundreds potentially of sub-projects that they need to keep track of. And some of the questions they ask are, did I update this logging library in one Go project or did I update in all of them? And do I have a situation where this sub-project is using a completely different framework than this other one and that’s introducing just general risks to the project.
So that’s kind of where some maintainers are kind of coming at it from as well. But there are plans actually as of recently, we had some discussions to actually start working on some additional tools and integrating with additional tools like Protobom, like bomctl, that are also OpenSSF projects to also help answer the question of what happens when I have one or five SBOMs as opposed to when I have 500 or 5,000 SBOMs. And there’s a big gap right now between I have one and I have 5,000 and we’re looking to try and help bridge that gap with some of the upcoming work in the new year.
CRob (10:44)
Very nice. Speaking of upcoming work, you’ve been in this space for a while. What do you see coming down the road in the next few years around supply chain security or dependency management?
Michael Lieberman (10:56)
Sure. What I see is a lot more of the open source distributors, so like your Pi PI, your Maven Central’s, integrating a lot more of this stuff like SBOMs and SLSA into the ecosystem and I know a lot of them are already in the works for doing this. But I think for the downstream consumers, right, but it’s one thing to do the security, it’s another thing to have folks who are consuming the software know, yes, I feel confident that they were that they’re actually doing the right things because I’m getting signed in attested documentation that I can tie back to the maintainers and You know unless the maintainers are completely lying to me, in which case, well, now they can’t be trusted and yada, yada, there’s potentially public repercussions or whatever for those individuals, like there’s clearly incentive to do this.
And so what I see is finally folks looking at not just how to produce all of this stuff, but how to consume it to answer questions and address risk, which then I think will introduce what is really needed right now, which is a feedback loop of people are producing SBOMs, some of them are gonna be more accurate than others. But I think through analysis tools, whether it is GUAC or any other thing that’s out there, right, Like there’s OSV scanner and there’s a bunch of other, things, we’ll start to see that folks will find gaps in those SBOMs, in those SLSA statements, in the supply chain metadata and realize that it needs to be updated. That data will be updated or enriched and will be generating better SLSA and SBOMs in the future. That’s, I think, one big thing.
The second big thing I think we’ll see, which is maybe, maybe a bit more, I don’t want to sound myopic or anything like that, but I do think especially in the AI space in the next, whether it’s next year or the next couple of years, we will see something akin to a Log4j in that space where a lot of folks will be relying maybe either on a data set that everybody thought was good, but it turns out it’s been polluted in some way, poisoned in some way. Or a model itself that a lot of things rely on that has some critical vulnerability, whether it’s purposefully injected with some sort of malicious behavior, or if it’s just, hey, we realize that the way we train this led it to be potentially exploited in a particular way to get it to make certain decisions that we don’t want to allow.
I think we’ll see that in the future because it’s hard enough to track dependencies and understand your supply chain when you’re talking about software and software consists of code. But when you’re talking about AI models that are trained on terabytes or more of data here, it can be very difficult to know like, where does that needle live of this thing has somehow polluted the overall model?
CRob (14:02)
That’s really interesting food for thought. We’ll keep an eye on that as we go into the future.
But let’s move on to the rapid fire part of our talk. So I got a couple quick and easy questions. I just want the first thought that comes into your head. First question, mild or spicy food?
Michael Lieberman (14:26)
Spicy.
CRob (14:30)
Nice. I also love me some spicy food. Text editor, Vi or Emacs?
Michael Lieberman (14:38)
Vi, Vi.
CRob (14:41)
(Laughter) All right, well that’s not the most contentious question we’re going to have. But Vi, I also love me some Vi. What’s your favorite adult beverage?
Michael Lieberman (14:51)
Ooh, whiskey.
CRob (14:53)
Whiskey, very good. Very safe answer. Now the most controversial question. Tabs or spaces?
Michael Lieberman (15:01)
(Sighs) Spaces.
CRob (15:06)
Awesome. And then finally, what’s your favorite open source mascot?
Michael Lieberman (15:11)
You know, for as much as I love the goose, I will say I’m a big fan of Tag Security’s TrashPanda raccoon mascot.
CRob (15:20)
Very nice. That’s a good one. So as we close out, do you have any kind of words of advice for someone that’s getting into the cybersecurity or open source development space?
Michael Lieberman (15:32)
Sure, yeah. The advice I always give is just get involved, right? Just get started. And it doesn’t matter where you get started. And to be clear, I was the same way where I’d be scared to, you know, I’d be like, I think I found a bug in a potential piece of software. Should I bother them with this? I could be wrong. It’s like, obviously do your due diligence. Like don’t just come in and immediately start saying, hey, I found this thing.
And obviously, everybody is, everybody’s wrong and I’m right. It’s more like, well, I look through the documentation, I look to see if there was any open issues about a thing, I didn’t see it, I opened up an issue, right? And then when it comes to the open source community generally, or just cybersecurity community in general, just, I think the big thing is ask questions, introduce yourself. Folks wanna help, right? Because even if we were all like, I wanna say like, most of us are pretty nice in the community. You know, yes, we can get a little annoyed at things and yada yada, but most of us are pretty nice.
And what I say is even if we weren’t nice, it’s in our best interest to get help here because it’s…there’s so much stuff that needs to get done. And so just come in, introduce yourself and so on. There’s also like, you know, for folks who are, who think that they need lots of expensive training on a lot of this, you know, you don’t, at least especially when you’re starting.
There is a lot of free stuff out there. There’s, for example, the Linux Foundation has a ton of great free resources, like from a training perspective for cybersecurity. But in addition to that there’s also all sorts of other like, you know, charities as well. Like if you’re somebody who is from an underrepresented group or, or struggles financially that, you know, can help get you a leg up as well.
But, in addition to that, think the big thing is it just keeps going back to introduce yourself to the community because we can help point you in the right direction. There’s a lot of folks who will help mentor and help you out in whatever way you need, whether it’s pointing you in the direction of a great training course or helping mentor directly or even just pointing you to here’s a good book you should read that I think helped me out.
CRob (17:42)
That’s awesome advice. Thank you. And finally, do you have a call to action for our listeners, something you’d like to see them do?
Michael Lieberman (17:50)
Sure. First, I’ll talk a little bit more broadly and then I’ll go more specific. But I think more broadly again, especially for folks who are end users who work at end users, like, you know, your, your big banks, I know having worked at big banks for years and years and years, you can feel disincentivized to participate in the open source community. Push for this because as folks who will be listening to this will are inevitably aware, right, banks are using tons of open source.
A lot of the challenges they have is not being able to contribute back, not being able to work with the community to address issues. Push on your organizations to be more involved while highlighting the actual risks there of if we don’t get involved, this costs us more money because there’s a whole community that’s looking to help and help fix this. And so we need to need to be involved to kind of get our voices heard.
And then in addition to that, just generally, right? Like, be more involved in the open source community, be more involved in the security community, especially if you’re a security engineer, it’s much easier to be involved in open source just from like, hey, I created this really cool tool that has this new feature and this new feature could make us all lots of money. You know, security is not often seen as the thing that makes everybody a ton of money. So it can sometimes be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ll work on that later. No, no. If you don’t take care of security, could potentially lose a lot of money. You could lose customer data. You could ruin your reputation, the reputation of others and cause serious damage. So more involved in the cybersecurity community is super important.
And then a bit more specific, a bit more self-serving, come join the GUAC community. We’re always looking for more contributors. We’re trying to find more end users, you know, one of our big challenges has been, turns out, you know, a lot of enterprises actually do use GUAC or have been making POCs of GUAC, but a lot of those large enterprises don’t come to the community, for example. And we’ll hear through the grapevine, such and such as using GUAC and they’re running into a bug. It’s like, well, we can’t fix it if we don’t know about it. So, so come join, come participate.
And again, as I mentioned earlier, contributions are not purely, like, I wrote, you know, a thousand lines of code for this new feature. It can just be open up an issue, fix a typo in our documentation. It can be helping write notes in the community meetings, right? Anything is helpful and appreciated.
CRob (20:19)
That’s awesome. Thank you very much, Michael. Appreciate your contributions to the community and thank you for joining us today.
Michael Lieberman (20:26)
Yep! Thank you for having me.
Announcer (20:28)
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