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What’s in the SOSS? Podcast #55 – S3E7 The Gemara Project: GRC Engineering Model for Automated Risk Assessment

By March 10, 2026Podcast

Summary

Hannah Braswell and Jenn Power, Security Engineers from Red Hat and contributors to the OpenSSF, join host Sally Cooper to discuss the Gemara project. Gemara, an acronym for GRC Engineering Model for Automated Risk Assessment, is a seven-layer logical model that aims to solve the problem of incompatibility in the GRC (Governance, Risk, and Compliance) stack. By outlining a separation of concerns, the project seeks to enable engineers to build secure and compliant systems without needing to be compliance experts. The speakers explain how Gemara grew organically to seven layers and is leveraged by other open source initiatives like the OpenSSF Security Baseline and Finos Common Cloud Controls. They also touch on the ecosystem of tools being built, including Queue schemas and a Go SDK, and how new people can get involved.

Conversation Highlights

00:00 Welcome music + promo clip
00:22 Introductions
02:17 What is Gemara and what problem does it address?
03:58 Why do we need a model for GRC engineering?
05:50 The seven-layer structure of Gemara
07:40 How Gemara connects to other open source projects
10:14 Tools available to help with Gemara model adoption
11:39 How to get involved in the Gemara projects
13:59 Rapid Fire
16:03 Closing thoughts and call to action

Transcript

Sally Cooper (00:22)
Hello, hello, and welcome to What’s in the SOSS, where we talk to amazing people that make up the open source ecosystem. These are developers, security engineers, maintainers, researchers, and all manner of contributors that help make open source secure. I’m Sally, and today I have the pleasure of being joined by two fantastic security engineers from Red Hat. We have Hannah and Jenn.

Thank you both so much for joining me today and to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and the work that you do at Red Hat? I’ll start with Jenn.

Jenn Power (00:58)
Sure. I am Jenn Power. I’m a principal product security engineer at Red Hat. My whole life is compliance automation, let’s say that. And outside of Red Hat, I participate in the OpenSSF Orbit Working Group, and I’m also a maintainer of the Gemara project.

Sally Cooper (01:18)
Amazing. Thank you, Jenn and Hannah. How about you? Hi.

Hannah Braswell (01:21)
Hey, Sally. Thanks for the nice introduction. I’m Hannah Braswell, and I’m an associate product security engineer at Red Hat. And I work with Jenn on the same team. And I primarily focus on compliance automation and enablement for compliance analysts to actually take advantage of that automation. Then within the OpenSSF, I’m involved in the Gemara project. I’m the community manager there. And then

I’m kind of a fly on the wall at a lot of the community meetings, whether it be the Gemara meeting or the orbit working group. I like to go to a lot of them.

Sally Cooper (02:01)
we love to hear that. I heard Orbit working group from both of you. That’s exciting. And I also really want to dive in to the project Gemara. So before we do dive into those details, let’s make sure that everyone’s starting from the same place. So for listeners who are hearing about Gemara for the first time, what is Gemara and what problem is it designed to address?

Jenn Power (02:23)
Sure, can start there. It’s actually secretly an acronym. So it stands for GRC Engineering Model for Automated Risk Assessment. So that’s kind of a mouthful, so we just shorten it to Gemara. And the official description I’ll give, and then I can go into it like a little bit more of a relatable example, is that it provides a logical model for describing categories of compliance activities, how they interact,

And it has schemas to enable automated interoperability between them. So like, what does that mean? I think a good, if we anchor this in an analogy, we could call Gemara like the OSI model for the GRC stack. In fact, that was one of the kind of primary inspirations for the categorical layers of Gemara. And Gemara also happens to have seven categorical layers, just like the OSI model.

So if you think about it in networking, if I want to send an email, I don’t have to understand like packet routing. I can just send my email. So in GRC, we can’t really do that today. We have security engineers that also have to be compliance experts to be successful. And so with Gemara, we want to outline the separation of concerns within the GRC stack to make sure that like each specialist can contain their complexity in their own layer while allowing them to exchange information with different specialists completing activities in different layers.

So like if I could give one takeaway, we want to make it so engineers can build secure and compliant systems without having to understand the nuance of every single compliance framework out

Sally Cooper (04:14)
I love that. So we have a baseline now. Let’s talk about the problem and get a little bit deeper into that. So Gemara is responding to a problem that you touched upon. Why do we need a model for GRC engineering and what incompatibility issue are you trying to solve? If you could go a little deeper.

Jenn Power (04:34)
Sure. So I think sharing resources in GRC is just really hard today. Sharing content, sharing tools, none of those tools and content, it doesn’t work together today, if I could say that. engineers are typically having to reinterpret security controls. They’re having to create a lot of glue code to make sure that a tool like a GRC system and a vulnerability scanner can actually talk to each other.

So we’re trying to solve that incompatibility issue on the technical side. But this is also a human problem. And I think that’s kind of the sneakiest part about it. A lot of times, we’re not even saying the same things when we use the same terms. And so that’s another thing that we’re trying to solve within the Gemara project.

This one comes up all the time. Take the word policy. If you say that to an engineer, you’re thinking immediately, policy as code, like a rego file or something you’re going to use with your policy engine. But if you’re talking to someone in the compliance space, they’re thinking like, this is like my 40 page document that outlines my organizational objectives. So we created definitions within the Gemara project to go along with the model to solve the human problem while we’re also trying to solve the technical problem.

Sally Cooper (06:05)
That’s interesting. Okay, I heard you say something about a seven-layer structure. Can you tell me why you chose a seven-layer structure for Gemara?

Jenn Power (06:17)
So this actually stemmed from an initiative under the CNCF called the Automated Governance Maturity Model. And that started as four concepts actually, policy, evaluation, enforcement, and audit. And that established the initial kind of lexicon that the project had been using.

And it initially got some adoption in the ecosystem, specifically in projects under the Linux Foundation, like FINOS Common Cloud Controls (CCC) and the Open Source Project Security Baseline (OSPS Baseline). And through the application of that lexicon, we found that there needed to be more granularity within that policy layer. So it expanded to two new layers called guidance and controls.

And I didn’t mention that we were creating a white paper yet, but we do have a white paper. And through the creation of that white paper, which Eddie Knight did so much work to create that initial draft there, we actually found that we were missing a layer. We had a seventh layer, and it was something that we had called sensitive activities. And it’s something kind of sandwiched in the middle of the Gemara layer. And so with that, we kind of organically grew to seven layers. So that I think is the kind of origin story on how the layers got to seven.

Sally Cooper (07:54)
I love that. And you’re really talking about how Gemara is not built in isolation, that you’re working with other open source projects. For example, you mentioned Baseline and the FINOS Common Cloud Controls. Can you tell me how Gemara connects to those projects?

Hannah Braswell (08:09)
Yeah. So in terms of Gemara connecting to the other open source projects, the first thing that comes to mind is really the CRA because of how prominent it is right now and just the future of its impact. And I really think that Gemara is going to be a catalyst for open source projects in general that are in need of some kind of mechanism to, you know, implement security controls and align with potential compliance requirements.

And the good thing about Gemara is that you don’t have to be a compliance expert to make sure that your open source project is secure. And so I would say that the OSPS Baseline is a great example of Gemara’s layer two, because it provides a set of security controls that engineers can actually implement. So in that case, other projects can reuse the baseline controls and then fit them to their needs.

And I think it also goes to say that, anyone that is actually building a tool they want to sell or distribute in the European Union market that’s using the open source components, they’re gonna have to think about what’s in scope and having something like the OSPS Baseline to understand how to effectively assess your open source components and their risks is really, really valuable and just gonna be super useful. And then in terms of the FINOS Common Cloud Controls, I think that’s

Also another great example, just in terms of the use case and implementation of Gemara, because they have their core catalog, which has its own definitions of threats and controls that’s then imported to their technology specific catalogs. And yeah, so that’s a great implementation within the financial sector.

And then where we’re trying to expand the ecosystem for Gemara, as in the Cloud Native Security Controls catalog refresh. And that’s actually an initiative that Jenn is leading. I’ve done a few contributions to it, but it’s essentially an effort to take the controls catalog that currently exists as a spreadsheet and make it available as a Gemara layer one machine readable guidance document. So Gemara is really connecting to projects that are all great to have on your radar, especially with the CRA coming up.

Sally Cooper (10:26)
Wow, that sounds great. But I’m just thinking about our listeners. They’re probably wondering, like, what does this look like in practice? And I’m curious if there are any tools available to help with the Gemara model adoption.

Jenn Power (10:39)
So we’re actually working on an ecosystem of tools. So we want to bridge that theory that we’re creating within the Gemara white paper to things that are actually implementable just to make sure that you don’t have to start from scratch if you’re trying to implement the Gemara model.

So we have a couple tools within the ecosystem. One would be our implementation of the model. We’re using queue schemas to allow users to create the models like in YAML, for instance, if you wanted to create your layer two, you would create YAML, you could use our queue schemas to validate that your document is in fact a Gemara compliant document. And then we’re also building SDKs. Right now we have a Go SDK, so you can build tooling around the programmatic access and manipulation of Gemara documents. A tool in the ecosystem that’s using this currently is a tool called Privateer that automates the layer five evaluations.

Sally Cooper (11:47)
Wow, that’s great. And of course, none of this works without the people. So I know you mentioned a few of them. How can new people get involved in the Gemara project?

Hannah Braswell (11:58)
So anyone that’s new and interested in getting involved in the Gemara project, my first piece of advice would just be to jump in a community meeting and listen in on what’s happening. I know I started out just by joining those meetings and I, you know, I didn’t necessarily have much to say, but I appreciated the culture and the open discussion, just like bouncing ideas back and forth off of one another.

And there’s also plenty of times when I joined a community meeting and still trying to understand the project if there was some kind of group opinion trying to be formed. Like I think it’s perfectly fine to say, you know, I don’t have the information right now. I don’t have an opinion. I’m still trying to learn about the project. But if something piques your interests and you want to contribute, then volunteer for it or show you’re interested because people are not going to forget about your willingness to step up and be part of the community.

But I started joining those meetings before we were rolling out the white paper. So that kind of brings me back to my first piece of advice. So I’d really suggest reading the white paper first, because it describes the problem and the trajectory of the project so well, and in a really clear way that I think is super important context for anyone that wants to start contributing. And I mean, from there, I mean, I’m the community manager, but I started with small contributions.

that ended up supporting the community in terms of documentation and some other aspects of the project I was excited about and that I could contribute to. So I really think the contributions are dependent on what you’re interested in. And even if there’s some difference in opinion and perspective or background, all of that can make a huge difference for the community and anything from documentation to code or discussion and collaboration will count as valid contribution and effort. So I’d say to anyone that’s wanting to join the Gemara community and start contributing, I think you should just find an area that truly interests you and makes you excited and get involved.

Sally Cooper (14:02)
Oh, that’s great. Well, thanks so much. And before we wrap, we’re going to do rapid, rapid fire. So I hope you’re ready because this is the fun part. No overthinking, no explanations, just the first instinct, okay, that comes to you. And I’m going to bounce. Yes, exactly. I’m going to bounce back and forth and ask you both some questions. Ready?

Jenn Power (14:17)
I’ll close my eyes then.

Sally Cooper (14:25)
Okay, Hannah, you’re up first. Star Wars or Star Trek?

Hannah Braswell (14:29)
Star Wars.

Sally Cooper (14:30)
Nice, I love it.
And Jenn, same question, Star Wars or Star Trek?

Jenn Power (14:335)
Star Wars.

Sally Cooper (14:36)
Okay, we’re all friends here.
Okay, back to Hannah, coffee or tea?

Hannah Braswell (14:42)
Definitely coffee.

Sally Cooper (14:43)
Yay, cheers. That’s solid.
Jenn, morning person or night owl?

Jenn Power (14:49)
Night Owl.

Sally Cooper (14:50)
Ohh that tracks. Hannah, beach vacation or mountains?

Hannah Braswell (14:56)
Hmm beach vacation.

Sally Cooper (14:58)
Nice choice. Jenn, books or movies?

Jenn Power (15:02)
Movies.

Sally Cooper (15:03)
Nice. All right, last round. Hannah, favorite open source mascot?

Hannah Braswell (15:08)
Oh…Zarf. I think that looks like an axolotl. I used to be obsessed with axolotls. And I mean, ever since I saw that, I was like, that’s the mascot.

Sally Cooper (15:18)
I love Zarf too. Cool. Okay. That’s a really strong pick.
Jenn, I’m going to give you the same question. Favorite open source mascot?

Jenn Power (15:26)
actually love the OpenSSF goose. I think it’s so cute.

Sally Cooper (15:30)
Teehee, Honk, he’s the best. Okay, let’s bring it home, Hannah, sweet or savory.

Hannah Braswell (15:38)
Savory.

Sally Cooper (15:39)
interesting. Okay, and Jenn? Spicy or mild?

Jenn Power (15:46)
mild. I can’t handle any spice. I’m a baby.

Sally Cooper (15:51)
love it. That’s amazing. Well, thank you both so much for playing along. And as we wind things down, do you have any other calls to action for our audience if someone’s listening, and they want to learn more or get involved? What is like the best next step for them?

Jenn Power (16:05)
I would say read the white paper. We are looking for feedback on it and that is really a way to understand the philosophy and the architectural goals of Gemara. And if you’re looking to just like, hey I want to learn GRC, that’s a good first step. So I think that’s what I would say.

Sally Cooper (16:28)
Fantastic. Hannah, Jenn, thank you so much for your time today and for the work you’re doing for the open source security community. We appreciate you both. And to everyone listening, happy open sourcing and that’s a wrap.